I don't recommend fighting with God. He's got that all powerful thing going on for Him. He's also got that three in one thing going for Him. When you fight God you're fighting the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three to one isn't good odds even when you are not fighting someone who can call down a plague of frogs on you.
There is however one thing that I think is worth fighting God over. There are people who strongly hold to the belief that everything that we do in this life is predestined. In other words God has a plan and every action that we do is already marked out for us. That includes people who are destined to spend eternity in Hell. There is even Biblical evidence to back up their belief. Romans 9 makes a pretty strong case to support this line of thinking. I believe in the Bible so I agree that God is in control and has a plan. But if God created some people to be predestined for destruction then I'd want to fight Him on this.
There was a time when God got really ticked off at His people. He had just rescued them from Egyptian slavery and while He was talking with Moses they create a god in the image of a cow. I'd be pretty upset myself. I mean at least make a god in the image of a lion or tiger or bear, but a cow...oh my. He threatened to destroy them but didn't because Moses asked Him not to.
In my opinion this idea of predestination is worth fighting with God over. I'm not saying you have to cuss God out or tell Him to put up His dukes. I'm just saying that it should cause us to argue on others behalf. Something inside us should cause us to beg God to move in our friends and families lives. I don't want anyone to be separated from God for all eternity. If someone is predestined it's worth fighting God over.
This kind of makes me think of Bell's advice in Velvet Elvis. Go ahead, Jump. Test it out and ask questions. See if the Bible rings true and makes sense. Seeking answers to questions that are important to us is not sacrilegious. Also, I agree that praying for folks and their saving is important. Of course, the topic that you raise is a good one for debate and discussion. God knows all. Past, present, and future. If we are going to hell ultimately, he already knows that before we are made. Kind of sounds like predestination.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, you have just brought up my biggest downfall of faith right here. Not just the fact that it could be viewed as predestined either. I said this at a retreat at Liberty once that I've always felt is the reason why it seems like predestination. I believe that as human beings we feel that if time exists to us it must exist to God. I tend to believe that time has no meaning to God at all. God is creating the world, God is seeing his Son die upon that cross, God is seeing you born, God is seeing you die, God is at the tribulation. I have a hard time believing that an all-powerful and compassionate God would predestine people to hell. So I believe the reason it seems that way in the Bible is that God is already there he's already seen it. It also explains Revelations in my mind.
ReplyDeleteIf God knows what we are going to choose...how is that a choice? I've heard this explanation for my entire life and it's never made sense. If I come to a crossroads and God knows I'm going to go right, then I can't go left or God would be wrong. Choice implies that you have multiple options. Your version only gives us one option.
ReplyDeleteRob- good topic to discuss. i am curious if your comment about fighting God over predestining people to hell implies that even though you might not like the idea, you still believe it to be true?
ReplyDeleteJosh, I get uncomfortable not believing something the Bible teaches. I'm not hard core predistination by any means, but because it's in there it does cause me to wrestle with God for the people I love. I believe that we have a free choice, but that God is still in control. I believe that people sin every day and that it's not God's best or choice for them to do so. At the same time God is in control and uses events to lead people to Himself. I know it's not a great answer but I believe that we are both predestined and free. I know it doesn't work logically but neither does the idea of a trinity. I hope that helps.
ReplyDeleteMy son is an adult who makes his own living and his own choices. If he goes to Outback, he will choose Allie Springs Chicken over salmon. Did I program him to make this choice? No. Does he indeed have the absolute freedom to choose salmon over chicken. Yes, but because I know him, I can predict his choice. God knows us so much better than we even know ourselves. We cannot comprehend the omniscience of God. Because He is all-knowing doesn't mean He controls or predestines our choices. The Garden of Eden verifies man's free will and the love of a God who longs to redeem mankind from the consequences of willfiul wrong choices.
ReplyDeleteMim, good comment.
ReplyDeleteI struggle with this a lot. I've left a church over this. I still struggle with it and it's a downer to think about. Deep down it doesn't sit right with me, that some are predestined for eternity in Hell, with no real choice in the matter. But like you, I see the evidence of it in the Bible that is hard to explain away. Evidence of both, really. So I don't drive myself crazy thinking about it, I have to accept that when I come up to a wall like this, that's where God is, and I am incapable of understanding it, otherwise I would be God....
ReplyDeleteMy post actually says the very opposite. I do not believe in predestination in the least bit. A humans mind thinks of time as a linear thing as we are forced to because in our lives we cannot see our past and future currently. See I believe this is a flaw in our collective logic to assign this same limitation to our almighty God. What other limitations does he have? I am not saying that God will be there in our future, or that He was there in our past, what I am saying is God is there at this very second. He is the great I Am. He is at the creation of the world, He is there watching the earth covered in His divine flood, He is there watching his Son die upon that cross. There are a few things in the Bible that lead me to believe this, and it has reassured my faith many times. I cannot say for sure of course that I am 100% correct on this matter as I do not believe that we will ever really fully understand God as His ways are not our own. If we do not put the limitation of our view of time onto God it explains how He knows every step we take and every hair on our head. It explains why things can seem predestined but ultimately still our actions be of our own free will. To God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. Our choices are our own, but I believe God has already seen them because he is already there. It could even be a figment of my imagination made up as a crutch to deal with things I do not understand, but its always helped me. Maybe that makes it make more sense?
ReplyDeleteHey Rob, you don't know me but I like your blog and read it frequently. I grew up in the doctrines of grace (aka predestination and election).I can quote Romans and Ephesians, but what it comes down to for me is this: Deuteronomy 29:29 (New International Version)
ReplyDelete29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
I gave up debating this subject a long time ago, and would rather stick to the things that are revealed to us clearly. I think the subject you write about, is having a heart for the lost, just like Paul (who wrote about the very topic several times) said he would rather give up his salvation to save his Jewish brothers. I think we should cry over the lost, and plead with God to save them. I have no idea who is saved and who is not, but God tells us to go and tell the world. So we do. He tells us to pray, and that our prayers have power, so I do. He works it out for his glory in the end. I leave the details on the how, up to him.
I understand what you are saying. I'm saying that I disagree. Or at least see the possibility for disagreement. If God exists in all time at once and we still have free will, then there would be an infinite number of each of us...all allowed to make choices. That seems like a lot bigger conundrum. Now, if God exists in all time at once and we have no free will, then the conundrum disappears. But I'm not a Calvinist and I don't believe in Predestination. Or at least I don't think I do. So we are left with a conundrum.
ReplyDeleteYes. But your son has the ability to surprise you. Sure God can know us to the infinite possibility of knowing us. And based on that knowledge he may be able to accurately predict what we are going to do. But that is very different than knowing what you are going to choose. You do not KNOW what your son is going to choose. You have a very good impression as to what he will choose.
ReplyDeleteIt also might not be a good idea because he'd flick u and your hip will break!!
ReplyDeleteApril, great comment! Thanks!
ReplyDeleteSimeon, most excellent point!
ReplyDeleteThis may totally be "dumbing it down", but whether you "believe" in predestination or not (and like Rob, I believe if it's in the Bible and we call ourselves Christians, we at the very least can't ignore it and pretend that it's not in there or important), it doesn't excuse us from our responsibility to share our faith with others and pray for those who are lost. If we throw our hands up and do nothing because everything is already predestined anyway, that doesn't allow God to use us to bring people to Him. God desires a relationship with each and every life that he created. Some will enter into a relationship with Him and others won't. Because we are His hands and His feet, He can use us to minister to those around us. He puts certain people in our lives because He knows we can have influence over them, relate to them, and love them, in ways others can't. God doesn't need our help, but we can be used by Him. We will never understand this subject fully, but in my opinion, all we need to understand is our job as believers -- to share our faith with others, minister to those around us, and pray for the lost. The rest is up to God.
ReplyDeleteI actually very much agree with your post Rob. While i lean more towards the Calvinistic predestination beliefs, we as humans do not know who the predestined are. Therefore we still keep our Biblical mandate to witness to the lost. I think free choice is an expression of our human outlook on the matter and predestination would be how God sees it. Either way, if I believe predestination or free will, i should be witnessing to the lost as a means of sowing the gospel.
ReplyDeleteFor a good overview of the entire topic and an alternate take that I happen to strongly agree with check out Gregory A. Boyd's book God of the Possible.
ReplyDeleteRarely do I voice dissent to your views, even if I disagree with them, however this one I so strongly disagree with that I can't help but voice it.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible can be anything but clear on a host of topics and the idea of predestination is one of them, but in my mind the verses against the idea far outweigh any that could be thought of being for it. As I responded to Faith, if you were looking for a more complete analysis, check out the book God of the Possible by Gregory Boyd.
One place that sums it all up nicely is Jeremiah 18:1-11... here God shows Jeremiah a potter that doesn't like his product and so changes his craftmanship or design if you will and says "can I not do with you as this potter does?... If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had inteded to do for it."
Basically in this verse and many, many others God says although I have a plan your actions or inactions can and does change that plan. Absolutely you should seek God for the lost, for plans can and are changed.